Vano Merabishvili, the Minster of Internal Affairs who is considered a
close ally of Mikheil Saakashvili recently gave an interview to
Kommersant correspondent Olga Alenova about the opposition's chances in
the municipal elections and the Government's perspective on relations
between Georgia, Russia and the West.
The interview caused controversy in Georgia and received denunciation
for his comments on Georgia’s attitude towards Europe and some other
things.
The Georgian Interior Ministry said in a brief statement on April 7,
that in general the published interview "accurately reflects Minister’s
ideas, but some parts of it, particularly those concerning EU-Georgia
relations and North Caucasus, are cut out of the context.”
Here GT offers a full translation of this interview.
Q: Could the results of the upcoming local elections surprise the Georgian Government?
A: I do not think so, because our rating is high – over 50%. Even in
Tbilisi we have 64 percent. There are very few states in the world
where the ruling party has a 64 percent approval rating in the capital
city. This is not only because we are good rulers but because the
opposition has shown everyone what it really represents. However, this
high rating is not very good for us...
Q: Why?
A: Because we will have to reduce it during the elections…(laughs). I'm joking.
Q: Why does the Government have such a high rating?
A: First of all, our successful reforms.
Q: If one of the leaders of the opposition, for example Irakli
Alasania, becomes the next President, will the reform policy be
maintained?
A: Alasania will not become President, he has no chance. Alasania is a Shevardnadze revanchist.
Q: So who will become the next President?
A: We will see.
Q: Won't the opposition win the Tbilisi Mayoral race too?
A: Gigi Ugulavas has a 64 percent rating, Alasania 9 percent, Gogi Topadze 6 percent, Levan Gachechiladze 2.6 percent.
Q: The opposition have different figures…
A: Yes of course they have.
Q: But didn't Gachechiladze beat Saakashvili in Tbilisi during the Presidential elections in January 2008?
A: Things happen. Yushchenko got only 5 percent of the votes in his last election, five years after a landslide victory.
Q: Nino Burjanadze went to Moscow after the reopening of the Zemo Larsi
border crossing checkpoint. During his meeting with her Vladimir Putin
called this reopening an example of the possible development of
Russia-Georgia relations. Many people in Georgia did not like this
reopening, saying that you have compromised with the Russian
Government, which still does not allow Georgian citizens to enter
Russia.....
A: Why should we not reopen this checkpoint? We do not issue visas (to
be precise we issue visas only to drivers) because Russia itself does
not give visas to our citizens. Moreover Russia does not allow citizens
of CIS countries pass through this checkpoint.
Q: What benefit do you gain from it? Only Armenians benefit from this reopening.
A: We are simply good neighbours.
Q: How would you evaluate Nino Burjanadze’s visit to Moscow?
A: What sort of attitude should I have? First there was Giorgadze, than
Ebralidze and now Burjanadze. Primakov was put in charge of Georgian
affairs in Moscow. Straight afterwards a potential Georgian king from
the Bagrationi dynasty emerged, one descendant of the last king married
another, the woman was even made to divorce her husband to do it. So
what? The political project has failed, together with the royal
marriage. In Moscow they are always looking to promote a successor in
Georgia. But this is pointless. Just look at the rating of these people
in Georgia and everything will become clear.
Q: There are no contacts between Moscow and Tbilisi now except through
the Orthodox Church. I have heard that the Georgian authorities do not
like this direct link between the Russian and Georgian Churches very
much.
A: No comment.
Q: But are these only Church-based ties?
A: "only” does not exist
Q: Many consider that the First Caucasian Channel is your project. Why do the Georgian authorities need this TV channel?
A: We must defend ourselves. Once in conversation with an acquaintance
of mine a Chechen, a Moscow-based oligarch, started to swear at the
Chechen authorities. When he was asked: "When will all these troubles
be over in Chechnya?” he answered, "How will they be over, when even
Georgians help us?” Georgian has become a symbol of resistance for
those who do not feel secure in Russia.
Q: Will you take revenge on Russia for Abkhazia and South Ossetia?
A: The war is not yet over
Q: From the military or political point of view?
A: From any point of view. But we are winning on the very front where
we are strong. As long as they say in Russia that good reforms are
underway in Georgia we are winning. Reform and democracy are the same
thing, and you do not have these in Russia. We also have different
values. Do you know that Givi Targamadze offered the Russian soldiers
50,000 USD in exchange for destroying the monument of Stalin in Gori?
There were informal contacts and it was possible to buy some benefits
from the Russians, that is why we decided to pay money in return for
getting rid of Stalin’s monument. Then they bombed the whole of Gori
but did not touch the monument.
Q: What answer did Givi Targamadze receive?
A: They felt insulted. They were ready to take money for everything else but not that.
Q: Do you want to say by this that we Russians have Soviet values and you Georgians have European ones?
A: You have just said this yourself. I will put it another way. There
are only two ways in the world - either to move towards Western culture
or go nowhere. We have chosen the first way and follow it. And you? Has
anything good happened in your country during the last few years? You
have quarrels with your neighbours, they are afraid of you and you are
afraid of each other. The public and police are in a state of war in
your country. What have you built during the past ten years? Therefore,
you will never win the war with Georgia.
Q: There is no need to build in order to win the war…
A: It is important. During last ten years the only project which has
emerged in Russia is Sochi. We have built the entire country anew.
There are other reasons you will not win. Your officials are scared of
the West, because when they were growing up they thought that the CIA
is stronger than the KGB, and you must be afraid of the West if you
keep your money in Western banks.
Q: You say that you are building but Russian investors are building in
Abkhazia, not you. Russian servicemen are in South Ossetia, so how are
you going to win there?
A: The fate of Abkhazia and South Ossetia is being decided not in
Abkhazia and South Ossetia but in the minds of people - Georgians,
Russians. The more successful reforms we make in the Interior Ministry,
healthcare, education, the closer Tskhinvali will come to Tbilisi,
because there is no precedent in the world for something being built on
occupied territories. It would be similar to building a house on sand.
It is possible to build barracks but investment will not be made.
Q: But the situation is different in Abkhazia. The Sochi Olympics will attract attention to Abkhazia.....
A: Dreaming is not harmful. Baghapsh was elected not because he won a
public vote but because he made a deal with The Kremlin. Now tell me,
why does Baghapsh not conduct reforms? Decisions are not made freely
there. They depend on The Kremlin, there is no democracy there.
Q: Is there democracy in Georgia?
A: Do you think there is not?
Q: To my mind there is democracy in Ukraine but not Georgia.
A: Why?
Q: There is no free TV station in Georgia.
A: Switch on the TV and you will see any opposition politician there.
Q: But the Government controls these channels. In Ukraine there are lots of channels which do not belong to the authorities.
A: Is that why there is democracy in Ukraine? What kind of democracy is
it when a candidate wins the elections by a 3 percent margin gained
because 97% of voters came to the polling stations in one region? Real
democracy is when the Government conducts fair elections. Have you seen
any region of Georgia in which 97 percent of voters went to the poll?
There is a law in Ukraine which says that if a policeman takes a bribe
of less than 200 hryvnia he pays a 500 USD fine and carries on working.
Is this democracy? Similar things do not happen here. Mobile phones are
not stolen in our country any more, because there is five years
imprisonment for doing this. Democratic Ukraine is only a cliché. When
Yushchenko lost everyone said that this showed there is democracy
there. When Saakashvili won it was said that there is no democracy.
Q: Does the West have such clichés?
A: Everyone has.
Q: Is it possible that the West was partly glad to see Yushchenko’s
defeat because it means the conflict between Russia and Ukraine is
settled, although not the one between Georgia and Russia?
A: Yanukovich will quarrel with Russia in 6 months as soon as an issue
arises – probably one about sharing out money and positions. Their
friendship will be over as soon as Putin demands the appointment of his
man or promotes some person’s interests. The same happened in our case.
Q: Are you disappointed in your Western partners?
A: Why? The intelligent West loves us, but we make our decisions
ourselves. We do not listen to anyone. Have you been to Karaleti to the
base of our special services troops, who are standing face to face with
the Russian military? The West was against this, they thought we would
provoke the Russians. We bought Cobra armoured vehicles for our special
troops and we have no more casualties in this region.
Q: So you do not always need to listen to Europeans?
A: I would say, almost never.
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