Vano Merabishvili: The war is not over yet

Vano Merabishvili, the Minster of Internal Affairs who is considered a close ally of Mikheil Saakashvili recently gave an interview to Kommersant correspondent Olga Alenova about the opposition's chances in the municipal elections and the Government's perspective on relations between Georgia, Russia and the West.

The interview caused controversy in Georgia and received denunciation for his comments on Georgia’s attitude towards Europe and some other things.

The Georgian Interior Ministry said in a brief statement on April 7, that in general the published interview "accurately reflects Minister’s ideas, but some parts of it, particularly those concerning EU-Georgia relations and North Caucasus, are cut out of the context.”

Here GT offers a full translation of this interview.

Q: Could the results of the upcoming local elections surprise the Georgian Government?

A: I do not think so, because our rating is high – over 50%. Even in Tbilisi we have 64 percent. There are very few states in the world where the ruling party has a 64 percent approval rating in the capital city. This is not only because we are good rulers but because the opposition has shown everyone what it really represents. However, this high rating is not very good for us...

Q: Why?

A: Because we will have to reduce it during the elections…(laughs). I'm joking.

Q: Why does the Government have such a high rating?

A: First of all, our successful reforms.

Q: If one of the leaders of the opposition, for example Irakli Alasania, becomes the next President, will the reform policy be maintained?

A: Alasania will not become President, he has no chance. Alasania is a Shevardnadze revanchist.

Q: So who will become the next President?

A: We will see.

Q: Won't the opposition win the Tbilisi Mayoral race too?

A: Gigi Ugulavas has a 64 percent rating, Alasania 9 percent, Gogi Topadze 6 percent, Levan Gachechiladze 2.6 percent.

Q: The opposition have different figures…

A: Yes of course they have.

Q: But didn't Gachechiladze beat Saakashvili in Tbilisi during the Presidential elections in January 2008?

A: Things happen. Yushchenko got only 5 percent of the votes in his last election, five years after a landslide victory.

Q: Nino Burjanadze went to Moscow after the reopening of the Zemo Larsi border crossing checkpoint. During his meeting with her Vladimir Putin called this reopening an example of the possible development of Russia-Georgia relations. Many people in Georgia did not like this reopening, saying that you have compromised with the Russian Government, which still does not allow Georgian citizens to enter Russia.....

A: Why should we not reopen this checkpoint? We do not issue visas (to be precise we issue visas only to drivers) because Russia itself does not give visas to our citizens. Moreover Russia does not allow citizens of CIS countries pass through this checkpoint.

Q: What benefit do you gain from it? Only Armenians benefit from this reopening.

A: We are simply good neighbours.

Q: How would you evaluate Nino Burjanadze’s visit to Moscow?

A: What sort of attitude should I have? First there was Giorgadze, than Ebralidze and now Burjanadze. Primakov was put in charge of Georgian affairs in Moscow. Straight afterwards a potential Georgian king from the Bagrationi dynasty emerged, one descendant of the last king married another, the woman was even made to divorce her husband to do it. So what? The political project has failed, together with the royal marriage. In Moscow they are always looking to promote a successor in Georgia. But this is pointless. Just look at the rating of these people in Georgia and everything will become clear.

Q: There are no contacts between Moscow and Tbilisi now except through the Orthodox Church. I have heard that the Georgian authorities do not like this direct link between the Russian and Georgian Churches very much.

A: No comment.

Q: But are these only Church-based ties?

A: "only” does not exist

Q: Many consider that the First Caucasian Channel is your project. Why do the Georgian authorities need this TV channel?

A: We must defend ourselves. Once in conversation with an acquaintance of mine a Chechen, a Moscow-based oligarch, started to swear at the Chechen authorities. When he was asked: "When will all these troubles be over in Chechnya?” he answered, "How will they be over, when even Georgians help us?” Georgian has become a symbol of resistance for those who do not feel secure in Russia.

Q: Will you take revenge on Russia for Abkhazia and South Ossetia?

A: The war is not yet over

Q: From the military or political point of view?

A: From any point of view. But we are winning on the very front where we are strong. As long as they say in Russia that good reforms are underway in Georgia we are winning. Reform and democracy are the same thing, and you do not have these in Russia. We also have different values. Do you know that Givi Targamadze offered the Russian soldiers 50,000 USD in exchange for destroying the monument of Stalin in Gori? There were informal contacts and it was possible to buy some benefits from the Russians, that is why we decided to pay money in return for getting rid of Stalin’s monument. Then they bombed the whole of Gori but did not touch the monument.

Q: What answer did Givi Targamadze receive?

A: They felt insulted. They were ready to take money for everything else but not that.

Q: Do you want to say by this that we Russians have Soviet values and you Georgians have European ones?

A: You have just said this yourself. I will put it another way. There are only two ways in the world - either to move towards Western culture or go nowhere. We have chosen the first way and follow it. And you? Has anything good happened in your country during the last few years? You have quarrels with your neighbours, they are afraid of you and you are afraid of each other. The public and police are in a state of war in your country. What have you built during the past ten years? Therefore, you will never win the war with Georgia.

Q: There is no need to build in order to win the war…

A: It is important. During last ten years the only project which has emerged in Russia is Sochi. We have built the entire country anew. There are other reasons you will not win. Your officials are scared of the West, because when they were growing up they thought that the CIA is stronger than the KGB, and you must be afraid of the West if you keep your money in Western banks.

Q: You say that you are building but Russian investors are building in Abkhazia, not you. Russian servicemen are in South Ossetia, so how are you going to win there?

A: The fate of Abkhazia and South Ossetia is being decided not in Abkhazia and South Ossetia but in the minds of people - Georgians, Russians. The more successful reforms we make in the Interior Ministry, healthcare, education, the closer Tskhinvali will come to Tbilisi, because there is no precedent in the world for something being built on occupied territories. It would be similar to building a house on sand. It is possible to build barracks but investment will not be made.

Q: But the situation is different in Abkhazia. The Sochi Olympics will attract attention to Abkhazia.....

A: Dreaming is not harmful. Baghapsh was elected not because he won a public vote but because he made a deal with The Kremlin. Now tell me, why does Baghapsh not conduct reforms? Decisions are not made freely there. They depend on The Kremlin, there is no democracy there.

Q: Is there democracy in Georgia?

A: Do you think there is not?

Q: To my mind there is democracy in Ukraine but not Georgia.

A: Why?

Q: There is no free TV station in Georgia.

A: Switch on the TV and you will see any opposition politician there.

Q: But the Government controls these channels. In Ukraine there are lots of channels which do not belong to the authorities.

A: Is that why there is democracy in Ukraine? What kind of democracy is it when a candidate wins the elections by a 3 percent margin gained because 97% of voters came to the polling stations in one region? Real democracy is when the Government conducts fair elections. Have you seen any region of Georgia in which 97 percent of voters went to the poll?

There is a law in Ukraine which says that if a policeman takes a bribe of less than 200 hryvnia he pays a 500 USD fine and carries on working. Is this democracy? Similar things do not happen here. Mobile phones are not stolen in our country any more, because there is five years imprisonment for doing this. Democratic Ukraine is only a cliché. When Yushchenko lost everyone said that this showed there is democracy there. When Saakashvili won it was said that there is no democracy.

Q: Does the West have such clichés?

A: Everyone has.

Q: Is it possible that the West was partly glad to see Yushchenko’s defeat because it means the conflict between Russia and Ukraine is settled, although not the one between Georgia and Russia?

A: Yanukovich will quarrel with Russia in 6 months as soon as an issue arises – probably one about sharing out money and positions. Their friendship will be over as soon as Putin demands the appointment of his man or promotes some person’s interests. The same happened in our case.

Q: Are you disappointed in your Western partners?

A: Why? The intelligent West loves us, but we make our decisions ourselves. We do not listen to anyone. Have you been to Karaleti to the base of our special services troops, who are standing face to face with the Russian military? The West was against this, they thought we would provoke the Russians. We bought Cobra armoured vehicles for our special troops and we have no more casualties in this region.

Q: So you do not always need to listen to Europeans?

A: I would say, almost never.

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