Kommerstant: "We Have Substituted The Russian Grushnikam Former Officer"
|
posted by eagle on December, 2010 as Genocide Crime
"We have substituted the Russian grushnikam former officer"
Georgian Interior Minister Vano Merabishvili told the special correspondent Kommersant Olga allene of the recent Georgian-Russian spy scandal and about what he sees Russia in a decade. "Our president said: any proposals from Russia, we consider" In November, you announced that Georgia has disclosed agency network of the Russian GRU. But in Russia, so far no one believes that it is in fact agents. Why? Well, social networks played Skrylnikova son, and said that his father had nothing to do with the secret services has not.Skrylnikova son, who worked where? Where? No, well, where he officially worked, Do not you know? Driver at the Russian Embassy in Georgia. Driver GRU officers, formally attached to the Russian military base in Batumi. That is, this officer of the GRU, which enter the country, officially passed as a member of the GRU, attached to a military base. They also were there and the FSB and the GRU officer, as to any military base. And this guy Skrylnikov, worked as a driver with a particular department. Tell me, can it work as a driver a person unrelated to GRU? Can I have a driver, not related to the Interior Ministry? Not registered in Register of the State of MIA? A brother of this Skrylnikova worked in Tskhinvali at the headquarters of the peacekeepers, is also a special department. Two family members - employees of the GRU, why their father can not be an employee?The fact that his son worked as a driver even when the special department, does not mean that the father was also Associate. Yes, but we are not unfounded is the claim. We have done a great job. We have substituted the Russian grushnikam former officer who has worked with the Soviet Union in the GRU informally. And he helped us to reach the svyaznikov and other agents. Skrylnikov was svyaznikom.You mean the operation "Enver"? This former Soviet officer Enver nickname? Yes, this man once again recruited by Russian, carried him away through Ukraine to Russia, gave him instructions, gave the program to decrypt the data provided svyaznikov through which information will pass, and sent back to Georgia. And this man gave us all the codes, names, data transmission channels. Through these channels, we came to the agency network, some agents were arrested, and some - not.When did you start this operation with Enver? Before the war in South Ossetia? No, it perezaverbovali last year. But with the help of his old code, we have deciphered intercepts, which we ourselves may not be able to decipher, and discovered a whole network. That is, we first revealed one thing, then another. And so the chain. This is a technical matter.And it turned out that during the war with the Georgian territory was a leak in Russia's favor? So says your opposition. Honestly, it could be much larger than she really was. I believe my colleagues have worked Russian unprofessional.Why do you have them for so many years could not reveal? I thought they were stronger. What success they have achieved? Even the Soviet KGB agents, the collapse of the Soviet Union are not expected. Nothing could prevent it. And now with one or two people out at the huge agency network, it's very difficult. A network was very large. And why have agents in five or six pilots in a helicopter regiment? This is also a big risk.You said that uncovered a large network, how big it is? Very big. These are people who stayed here after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We are talking about tens of thousands of people. Actually, this campaign was not around Enver PR against Russia, it was the message of people living in Georgia. The biggest problem you know what? When we came to power and tried to recruit agents, we were told: "You guys are weaklings, you have so many Russian agents inside that if I go to you, I was chased into a powder. And the fact that last year we were able to convince the agent and our agent had dared to go to Russia, it says a lot. If there knew he was a double agent, he would come back from there? He believed in us. Believed that it will not give up, that will not drain. What work it out professionally. And to people like us to believe, it is necessary sometimes to publish something. Here we publish the results of such operations. But we did it all for another reason that those potential agents that live in Georgia, they knew that they should not cooperate with foreign intelligence agencies. And to those who are already working, come to us themselves.And that, many people come? Very many. These are people who somehow come in contact with Russian intelligence agencies, but does not consider that done something terrible. Someone once sent some letter, someone went and passed a bundle and so on. And who is nice to be in the dock for the fact that two years ago sent a letter to then?Therefore, a person decides: I'd better go and tell you what I will be arrested. And living in Georgia and seeing how we work, he can not understand that sooner or later we will reach it.And what kind of information went from Georgia to Russia through agents? Misc. Arrangement of parts, information on the movement of goods, maps, documents, procurement of weapons. Well, what I'm talking about the situation in 2008.But I repeat, this is not the scale that it could be.Know that seems strange to me in this whole story and why it does not cause me confidence? When declassified Russian spies in the U.S., Moscow immediately acted and made the exchange. In your case, Moscow is silent about any exchange of speech is not. The impression is that it does not spies. Well, America, and then Georgia. That for them, Georgia? Time point, unserious people who sooner or later become part of Russia. Russia says Georgia is not a full-fledged State with which the need to negotiate or someone swapping.What do you mean this? The special services have their own code of honor, and, if a person is caught, it will try to pull out, so I imagine it is so present. And then silence. In the GRU must have other rules: if caught, he himself and answer for themselves. And the RAF is probably their pulls.Again do not agree with you: In 2006 you gave Russian GRU officers arrested in Georgia. This was not an exchange, but simply giving. I find it difficult to judge the internal rules of the secret services of Russia. There it was on the staff officers of the GRU. Here - about the agents. Well, I'm incompetent, I do not know.But do not you are invited to share these agents? Not yet. And if the offer - consider? Any proposals we will consider. Our president said: any proposals from Russia, we consider. But this question has been MIA, but the Foreign Ministry and interstate relations."So many people have never crossed the border" Why Georgia hinder the Sochi Olympics? I do not know, I do not like sports. This is not a sport. If the Georgian parliament adopted a decision to impede the Olympic Games in Sochi, so is politics. I am not yet prepared to answer this question. It is interesting that this question no one in Georgia until the reply is not ready. All promise to respond later. Well, I'll answer later. And about the Circassian issue also later say? Will be in parliament recognized the genocide of Circassians? Yes, ready. That is, it will take? Yes, it will take. Why?But this will further complicate relations with Russia. And what happens is it more? Georgia has abolished visa requirements for citizens of the North Caucasus and in Russia it is perceived as a provocation. Why did you take that step?Border Guard is included in the Interior Ministry, so that the issue in your jurisdiction. I do not understand this reaction of Russia. In any country, encouraged by the liberalization of any restrictions.You mean the liberalization of visa regime with the neighboring areas? Not only that. If Georgia is to abolish visas for all Russians, it too will be good.But does not abolish the same. A reversed only for residents of the North Caucasus. So what? It turns out that the North Caucasus, Georgia is building relationships, and with Russia - no? I do not understand what the problem is? What is wrong there? Caucasians living nearby. Moskvich flies the aircraft, and Caucasians have to go to Moscow, then to fly here. Here are the Ossetians, if he wants to travel to Tbilisi from Vladikavkaz, should fly to Moscow and then here. How much money did he spend? And between Tbilisi and Vladikavkaz four o'clock ride.And in the Ossetian Lars can not drive? You've opened a border. None. There may pass only people who do not need a visa. If Russian there passed our citizens and give them a visa, we too would have done it. But at the unilateral do not want. If you need a visa, you are there do not pass. But now, after the removal of visa restrictions in the North Caucasus, to you, if you live in South Ossetia, a visa is not required and you can go through Lars.And that ride? Here's how you think, how many people ride? 700 people a day just by Lars!Ossetians? Everything. Chechens, Dagestani, Kabardian, Balkar, Ossetians - everything.And where were they going? 70% are in transit through Georgia - who is on Hajj, who is in Turkey, while 30% remain in Georgia. I'll be honest, I was not expecting this. We have now doubled the number of guards there. There, the Russian side in long lines, because Russian border guards also did not expect this. Because so many people have never, even in Soviet times, do not cross that border. And all because we have opened a window for these poor people, and they were able, through Georgia to go somewhere.Why poor? Because not everyone can afford to fly out of Grozny in Istanbul by plane. Or fly to Moscow and from there to Istanbul. Many cheaper by car via Georgia. In general, people want something to look, they're interested. Know how many Russian citizens visited Georgia this year for nine months? This is before abolished visas for North Caucasians. 140 thousand It very much. In general, Georgia during this period attended 1.7 million people, is 40% more than last year.And what is the reason? Batumi you saw? A Svaneti? 350 thousand Armenians, 360 thousand Azerbaijanis, 360 thousand Turks in this year's visit to Georgia. Such a rapid growth of tourism in general, I have never seen. The more people learn about Georgia became, the more they come here. Have you read the material in the journal "Auto Review" about how the Russians came here by car? Here people came, they saw how things work here, be amazed at how polite the police immediately, and wrote about it, and the Russian reader read it and also wanted to come. That's how it works."Why does the opposition do not care what happens in Russia?" You continue to show on television stories about the disclosure of the facts of corruption. I recently found 11 directors of kindergartens, who squandered public money. A feeling that this is happening every day. You are also doing a demonstration purposes to other nepovadno was? Of course. Reform of such a thing that never ends. One day stay - can be late.But the opposition said that the Georgian elite corruption, and with it, no one fights. This is a very original way. Corruption, we do not, there are elite. We build a new police station costing 30% cheaper than any private house. Where's the corruption? The opposition talks about corruption in Georgia and in Russia there is no corruption? I wonder why the opposition is not concerned that in Russia there?The worst thing is that in Russia there is degradation of the elite. Previously, Russia's liberal elite was much more liberal than Georgia. It was ten times better educated and more humane than ours. And now, on the contrary, it becomes marginal. In Russia, the Liberals have become marginalized.In Georgia, people have always been more liberal than their leaders. Russia has always after Peter all the leaders were more liberal than public opinion. Before the Communists. After the Communists, Yeltsin and Gorbachev, they were much more liberal than the then public opinion. And now the problem is not even that someone is in government, it is in the people. Think of the Khrushchev thaw, how many liberal people. And during the adjustment? And now even Shevchuk you have marginal. The more powerful elite? She creates fashion. Therein lies its strength. No value has its number, the main thing - quality. It creates public opinion.And now in Russia's elite does not create fashion. I recently watched the transfer of "Duel", there were well-known lawyer of Khodorkovsky and Zhirinovsky (probably it is the release of 18 November, which, together with Vladimir Zhirinovsky attended Henry Reznik, who, incidentally, is not a lawyer, Mikhail Khodorkovsky. - "Power" ). Of course, I do not doubt that Zhirinovsky will win one hundred to one. But there were honored lawyers, and every one, except that Khodorkovsky's lawyers, said that crime in Russia has increased because of the moratorium on the death penalty. Well, I understand, when a simple, uneducated man says we should all kill or hang on a big bitch. But when it says educated lawyer, I do not understand. One person out there in the studio said: if the offender had killed someone in your family, why do you have to pay taxes for its upkeep in prison? And nobody in the hall told him: Listen, we are the same people. We're not savages.If a person has committed a crime, it does not mean that he needs to chop his head. You know, they seriously discussed the question that criminals should be shot. Like, say, can they do to feed in prison. What not to feed, listen, XXI Century in the street! I was very surprised. Yes, I can understand that everyone individually can say this, but when 50 people get together, smart, educated people, the elite, someone there must be another opinion! And when everything in the studio say that we should be shot, so Humanism recedes.Why do you have in Georgia is concerned? I'm nervous, because Russia is separated from the civilized world. Why are you nervous? Because it's worse for us. Not choose your neighbors.You are so concerned about the problems in Russia, because you think that the Georgian problem without this can not be solved? No, this plan is just no correlation between Russia and Georgia, I can not see. Of improving the political culture in Russia depends heavily on the changing political culture in Georgia. The influence of Russian culture in Georgia is minimal."The occupation - is more serious than Khodorkovsky You want to say that the Russian Film Festival here passed unnoticed? In my opinion, it was a sensation. People are nostalgic about the Russian culture. And you ask who knows about this festival, but Bohemia? The problem is that more than half the population does not know who Ryazanov.I did not believe it. "Irony of Fate" is also not aware of? "The irony of fate" still know, and Ryazanov - no longer exists. Because the world has changed. The world has become global, now the young guys will learn through the Internet, what happens at the other end of the earth. Russian themselves look more American films than his own. What is the impact of Russian cinema could be in Georgia? That's when you looked the last time a Russian film?Recently. We have a very good movie. But it's probably not an indicator, yes? And we have people looked at one movie a Russian and a hundred American. Now Russia is not a trendsetter for Georgia.Because she is poor. Previously, if you turn on the TV, you know that we have a level of television two times lower than in Russia. Now - on the contrary. Not because we have become better, but because you have become worse.Another question: why do Europeans and Americans are not really trying right now to influence Russia? Want to know my opinion? 10-15 years, and it is in foreign policy, a very small period, Russia will be the economy and the population 20-m state in the world. I'll call the country, which ten years will outstrip the size of the economy and the size of the population of Russia - Turkey, Iran, Nigeria, Cameroon, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Brazil. Imagine that in ten years Russia will be less than Turkey, on the economy. And 30 years ago, the Soviet Union was the first or second state in the world. And now Russia will be the 20 th. And anyone interested in the 20 th country in the world? What impact will the West will be the 20 th country in the world?Well, only if that country's oil and gas is not sold. Even if you sell. Imagine that Brazil and Turkey will be richer and more capital there will be greater than in Russia. Right now people pay attention to Nigeria or Vietnam?I think you are exaggerating. Russia depends heavily on the European countries on energy issues. Why do you think? Because a few years ago half of Europe nearly froze, when Russia shut off valve. Yeah, so what? Now Europeans understand, with whom they deal, and began to diversify. Russia lost a third of the market. Ten years later, the Russian share in European energy sector will be 15%. Because Europeans know: with Russia should not get involved. So they decided to carry oil from Algeria and Qatar to import gas.A nuclear weapon? Nuclear weapons and North Korea has. There will be one such country where journalists are killed, which is dangerous and where else and occupy neighboring territory. Just imagine, now, throughout the Western world recognize that Russia has occupied 20% of the territory of Georgia. This stigma. On the Russian brand.Now any European country, conducting negotiations with Russia, will say: yes, all is well and we were all satisfied with your condition, but have you occupied territory, it is necessary to resolve this issue. And if asked to Russian loans, they say: with Georgia should be negotiated. And if they want to invest, they say again about Georgia. Europeans, they are the same bureaucrats, they recorded that this occupation, and all. And who is this change? They are now before the Russian ace. That is, imagine a foreign journalist preparing an article about Russia. Or businessman is going to Russia, and it is ready profile: that Russia is good, what's wrong. And what he sees: Russia beat journalist. There's occupied territories. There, seated businessman. There, prisoners dying in jail. So what, like a businessman? I think not. About Khodorkovsky's already tired of talking all the time everywhere in the West say about Khodorkovsky. He made Russia a big problem. Meet with congressmen, they say: you Khodorkovsky, oh, how badly. And every time the same thing. It can not get bored, so that at some time not to release Khodorkovsky finally. And a month later, by the way, the subject of Khodorkovsky in the West will be closed. And the occupation - is more serious than Mr. Khodorkovsky. This is a serious discredit Russia.You when you talk about the West's recognition of the occupation, keep in mind Obama's speech? The European Council voted in late November, Mr Barroso in his speech said that Georgia is occupied, Obama and Clinton spoke about this. Who else is needed?I could not even dream about it. And helped us with this Russia. The fact that there are beaten journalists. Imprisoned businessmen. And so on.Despite all this, Georgia seems to have come to terms with the lost territories. No, quite the contrary. West's recognition of the occupation increases our chances for another 10%.Are not you afraid that you have drawn Russia into a ten-year term, and you also will not allow to develop? Such a state for you, too, is very dangerous. As the 20 th state in the world might be someone dangerous? But you cites North Korea - North Korea is dangerous for its neighbors. It is so harmless that South Korea does not even begin to fight there. They do not even want to get involved in the war. They think: "Now we will take this country, and how many people there are hungry, and we need to feed them.And if you come again, the troops in Tbilisi? 20 th state in the world can already agree to this. Russia two years ago failed to take Georgia, which would cause you to be. I could not. And if you were the second country in the world could be? Could, of course. You've gone into Afghanistan, where were the second state. And America went to Afghanistan to Iraq. Yes, Russia can do us harm, interfere with Georgia, published in the West, anything, to ban our products, to prohibit investments in Georgia - and in spite of all this, Georgia is growing faster than Russia.How did the spy scandal
Alleged "Russian spies were arrested in Georgia for over a month ago. Moscow described the situation as "political farce". October 29 , Reuters reports citing unnamed sources in law enforcement agencies announced the arrest in Georgia, 20 people suspected of transferring classified information through Russia they created a spy network.November 5 followed by the first official comment by the Georgian authorities. At a special briefing, deputy head of counterintelligence Georgian Interior Ministry Otar Ordzhonikidze said that the arrests were carried out in the middle of October. He clarified that it had detained 13 people - four Russians and nine citizens of Georgia: Six pilots of the Georgian Air Force, Navy officer, five businessmen and retired. Two more defendants began to collaborate with the investigation and released. All the detainees were accused of collaboration with the Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU) of the General Staff of the Armed Forces. In response, Russian Foreign Ministry accused Georgia of "political farce" and "spy-mania in chronic anti-Russian soil."November 6 Georgian television station Rustavi-2 showed the documentary "Enver", telling about the raid. It was reported that reveal the counter-intelligence spy ring managed by the introduction of the GRU their man - a former soldier of the Russian army with our agents pseudonym Enver. The essence of the charges brought by the spies, was limited to the transfer of Russian secret information about the transportation of cargo through the port of Batumi, military information during the conflict in August 2008, data on the status of the Georgian Air Force, codes and ciphers of the Georgian army, as well as data on international military cooperation between Georgia .November 8 the Georgian Foreign Ministry has expressed readiness to discuss with Russia the exchange arrested for espionage, and the next day, President Mikhail Saakashvili during a special operation of rewarding participants confirmed the desire to start negotiations with Moscow "at any time and at any level." In response, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that any dialogue on the exchange will not, and asked to provide consular access to the Russians.November 22 detainees citizens of the Russian Federation met the head of the Russian Interests Section at the Embassy of Switzerland in Georgia, Andrei Smaga. Details of the meeting were not disclosed. November 30 lawyers of the accused was informed that the terms of their detention will expire on December 14-15. In this trial, which should be ensued, would be closed, so far as it concerns national security.Eugene KozichAuto translation via Google http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1549013&print=true
|
comments (0)
|
.jpg)
