From: MSN NicknameEagle_wng  (Original Message)    Sent: 10/25/2005 6:54 AM
October, 21, 2005

The North Caucasus after the events in Nalchik

The program "sums of week" conducts Andrey shariy.

Participate the Vice President of the fund for support to democracy and for social progress, Chechen political scientist and politician shamil Ben and former representative of the Chechen leader Aslan Maskhadov Ahmed Zakaev.

Andrey shariy: Guests of the program: the Vice President of the fund for support to democracy and social progress, Chechen political scientist and politician shamil Ben and former representative of the Chechen leader Aslan Maskhadov Ahmed Zakaev.

First question to Mr. Beno: Russian authorities persistently call proceeding in Chechnya and in the North Caucasus anti-terrorist operation, and experts speak about the war. And now after events in Nalchik some predict even beginning of large Caucasian war. Tell, in your opinion, what precisely occur in the North Caucasus?

Shamil Beno: The crisis results in the North Caucasus, unconditionally. It is possible to name this terrorist operation, it is possible to name this war shooting, but single-valued is that, the crisis goes in the North Caucasus, not the political process, which designates, that in the morning people cannot safely go to work and in the evening out of danger return. In each republic this crisis is manifested in its own way, but, in my view, poor control is source in all cases.

Andrey shariy: Mr. Zakaev, Russian authorities consider you as terrorist and they attain your delivery from the British authorities. After your commentaries of events in Nalchik, including in ether of our radio, the representatives of the government of Russia accused you of flouting of moral standards, since you stated, that Russia follows to expect new attacks. You actually have this information?

Ahmed Zakaev: What I can say about the performance of the Minister of Foreign Affairs Lavrov, relative to my estimations of events in Nalchik? Fact lies in the fact that actually the action of the soldiers of Caucasian front in Nalchik is legitimate military operation within the framework of armed conflict. The lawful aspects of this action must be examined in the context of the Geneva conventions.

The anti-terrorist rhetoric of Lavrov here is inappropriate. And even in connection with turning of Lavrov to government, I want to remind to justice of Great Britain the solution of British judge in the matter of the Russian Federation against Akhmed Zakaev from 13 October 2003, in which is said: events in Chechen Republic in lawful sense are the internal armed conflict (this exactly concerns your previous question), to which it is possible to apply the Geneva conventions. And according to the Geneva conventions, the destruction of enemy in war is not crime.

Andrey shariy: Mr. Beno, as you will comment this position?

Shamil Beno: You know, any position has right to existence under the conditions of crisis. But if we speak about the Caucasian front, Caucasian sector - this all, of course, it does not correspond to reality. Because the performances in Nalchik were caused not by some previously planned action, but they were caused by the fact that the kabardin-balkarsk groups, Jamaats, are more accurate, which did not lately find the way of integration into the operational system, and the specific actions were undertaken in two weeks for the appearances, they decided, that what for to fall on one into the hands of the police, it is better in to a heap undertake weapon. Hence and the explanation of that fact that for law-enforcement agencies it was possible to localize very rapidly in the Russian Federation and The kabardin-Balkarsk republic the actions of fighters on the strength of the fact that these were people not trained, they had no relation to no fronts. Concerning the legitimacy of international law, I must say that the rights and responsibilities result from the daily activity. Naturally, today in the territory of the Chechen republic no one recalls about the lawful aspects of the government of Maskhadov or their representatives abroad. And to me, right, it is amazing that if Lavrov about this declared, amazingly the attention, which gives the Russian federal representatives to those people, which in principle present no threat or danger.

Andrey shariy: let’s listen to the opinion of listener.

Igor Nikolaevich from Moscow telephoned to us into the editorial staff. Good evening.

Listener: Good evening. I ask the question: when will end cruelty in Russia?

Andrey shariy: Thanks. A question is very general. Strictly speaking, we attempt by some means to find the ways of output. And precisely I would want to a little differently raise your question. You know, dear collocutors, I have created strange impression. Besides the horror from the sequential tragedy of North-Caucasian and regret apropos of the loss of people, in the recent days does not leave me the sensation of the senselessness of the fact that occurs. The situation in the essence changed in no way, perished more than hundred people from two sides. Are not there some possibilities of search bit more design method of regulating situation? Mr. Zakaev, what do you think in regard to this?

Akhmed Zakaev: The fact is that in this question the position of Chechen management was declared originally already since 2000, from 99 years. I am absolutely convinced of the fact that the conflict does not have military solution. But, unfortunately, for the elongation of several centuries was formed so that the prerogative to begin and to conclude wars in the Caucasus remained to Russia. And today nothing it changed. Strictly say, and our guest, to the large regret, and many people today became the hostages of Kremlin propaganda, which he conducts during the last 10 years, speaking and mixing people, that occurs peace-making building, war ended. This is still bluff - this is still propaganda. And it in no way can contribute to actually peaceful regulating and stabilization of region. After becoming the hostages of its own propaganda and antinational policy in the North Caucasus, authority cannot adequately evaluate the proceeding processes.

Andrey shariy: Mr. Zakaev, at one time Aslan Maskhadov, deceased Chechen leader, was considered the partner of Moscow during the negotiations and he was at one time the legitimate President of Chechen Republic. There is the information about the fact that in their time him and not to Kadirov proposed to become leader of the promoscow, prokremlin authorities of republic. You were close to Maskhadov, can you confirm this information?

Akhmed Zakaev: Moscow did not reject these intentions. Strictly say, Moscow counted on Maskadov, being confident in the fact that after Jokhar, after Yandarbiev, after Zelimkhanov that Maskadov is more inclined and will be more acceptable for Moscow, for resolution of the political questions, which dispatch contrary to the interests of Russia, i.e., to return Chechen republic under the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation. And in this question the most reliable partner for Kremlin seemed precisely Aslan Maskhadov. I will say even more greatly: my meeting with the kazans on 18 November, which spent in 2001, practically any other proposals, except as to engage prorussian side and to begin war against the Chechen people, there were not other proposals from the side of Russia. Strictly on this was completed our dialogue. Because I knew and was absolutely confident in the fact that Maskhadov will never agree to this role.

Andrey shariy: Thanks. Mr. Beno, a question to you in the development of the same theme. Many among the liberal journalists, in the liberal media is this word combination "band of kadyrov", when they speak about that, who now governs Chechnya with the aid of the Kremlin. They frequently indicate that the group, which governs Ramzan Kadirov, little differs from the fighters, simply they recolored Moscow Kremlin colors. How do you relate to the phrase "band of Kadirov"?

Shamil' of Ben: You know, I relate to the phrase "band of Kadirov" very skeptically on the strength of the fact that I will develop theme of Mr. Zakaev apropos of Chechen management. The fact is that the Chechen society is today atomized. And if we speak about who has the right to come out on behalf of Chechen people, today the greatest right to speak on behalf of Chechen people undoubtedly has only Chechen people. But if it asked concretely, then today undoubtedly attention and support from the side of the inhabitants of the Chechen republic experiences the acting management. The government of the Chechen republic Ichkeria, if you arrive into Grozn and you will ask people on the street, then no one will recall.

The fact is that the second military campaign in the territory of the Chechen republic began to a considerable degree through the fault of the government of Maskhadov and through the fault of the management of the Chechen republic Ichkeria, which not only did not manage those tasks, which stood before the republic in the space between the wars, but also provoked this military action to a considerable degree. And here I do not think that Chechen society or the representatives of Chechen society fall under the action of the propaganda of Russian Federation or federal propaganda, when we say that there was the problem, there were hostage taking. In my eyes Maskhadov lost legitimacy at that moment, when to him address the inhabitant of Urus-Martan with the request to release hers son, she knew, where he is held, but she had not money for the ransom. He said: "leave me. All you tired me ". They repeatedly requested Maskhadov to be dismantled with the situation; however, neither to him nor government, which then acted in the territory of the Chechen republic, did not be sufficient nor courage nor competence, in order to solve these problems. Today Akhmad Kadirov took upon itself responsibility in order to be dismantled with this problem.

I have the question: where there were the leaders of the Chechen republic Ichkeria, when in Chechnya was created cruelty? And if not this cruelty, then today there would not be second Chechen company and the Chechen republic de facto had all chances in order to be developed normally and to have some contract relationship. Another question – ask what.

Andrey shariy: Thanks, Mr. Beno. I would want to learn from Akhmed Zakaev, does he have the answer to the question, where there were then the leaders of republic?

Akhmed Zakaev: All these moments, which counted your guest, they actually occurred, but by the authors and the leaders of all these negative processes appeared just by Russian special services. Russia stopped war shooting in 96 year, but it did not finish war. War passed into another plane - the plane of structures and special units and special-measures, which Russia carried out in the territory of Chechen Republic. Daghestan, hostage taking and all these negative, which were in Chechen Republic - this was not by reason, this was pretext for the second military campaign. Even in 96 year Lukin, Russian Democrat, publicly after the signing of Khasaviurt agreement, not lefting from the table of negotiations, he stated: "nothing, after five years we will show you. We will be collected forces and in five years will show ". And this period, which today it is discussed, exactly was the preparation of the beginning of the second military campaign.

I have a question to your guest, who speaks on behalf of the people: why does he, as the representative of this people or as men, which appeals to the right of this people, consider Chechen people this waning and he does not have a right to its statehood, to the self-determination and to all other, that escapes from right to the life and to the self-determination?

Andrey shariy: Thanks. I will compulsorily ask Shamil Ben to answer to your question.

In ether is Mary andreevna from Saratov region, good evening.

Listener: How do you do. Akhmet, son, I am old Russian woman and much transferred in the life. Communist authority evicted our family to the frost, to death from cold and hunger. Therefore I understand, how to your people to live in the meat grinder and to you in the expulsion, far from the native land. Our Russians are robbed and unemployed. Children and grandsons do not need this criminal war, but they direct them to your children. You must strengthen.

Andrey shariy: In ether is Kursk district. Good evening, Nikolai.

Listener: How do you do, Gentlemen. Here absolutely are outlined parallels with Kosovo. There everything was also so, it is unknown, who provoked, unknown what then. But we see, we know the results of this all. There could Slobodan Miloshevich completely differently behave.

Andrey shariy: Nikolai, let’s not discuss Kosovo, there entirely another story, I tell you as men, who was in Yugoslavia many times, worked in this country. Do you have, what to say apropos of Chechen situation?

Listener: There is that to say. Absolutely briefly: today everyone indicates that we cannot let go Chechen Repblic, otherwise they will cut off on Rostov, but that is more than Rostov. Than further they will not release Chechen Republic, they will cut off still further. As soon as oil will fall, so everything will scattered. Already now find the apartments in Moscow, at which lies to the complete company the weapon.

Andrey shariy: Thanks. Mr. Beno, question of the representative from London in Chechen consisted in that, how I understand, I will a little paraphrase him, a question about that, who and as will define for the Chechen people, how will he live and does he have right to the self-determination? Actually, a question about the legitimacy of the selections, which were passed recently to Chechen Republic and which will pass in it soon, it exists. As far are these selections honest?

Shamil Beno: You know, in the situation, when society is atomized... Does have Chechen people right to the self-determination? It goes without saying, it has. Do Chechen people have right for good management of its matters? It goes without saying, it has. And here the most complex problem: that’s enough; it already tired to us, when anybody speaks for the Chechen people. Mary Andreevna said that we survived difficult times. Yes, I consider that they more deserve happiness, than Soviet people, which all this survived - both the moving out and Stalinism, and war, the people, which would deserve happiness more than the former Soviet inhabitants, hardly will be located. But at the same time I must say that sitting far away, to discuss about the right, about the freedom and to be hero - this is very easy. Today in the Chechen republic, unfortunately, did not find the men, who were capable of taking upon themselves responsibility and governing.

I will give one small example. Zakaev spoke, that the Russian special services interfered. You remember, in the Soviet time Soviet people prevented from living Zionism, imperialism and weather conditions. This is of the same category. I can give the specific case, when I myself walked including to Maskhadov, to Yandarbiev, I do not speak about Basay, he is already out of the framework of discussion. But it is at the same time very easy, sitting far away, to discuss about that which occurs. Che Gevera entered into the history on the strength of the fact that it was man of opposition and it defended its positions. I think that today Chechen people need not the conversations, but the actions. If Akhmed Zakaev considers that in the Chechen republic the fighting for independence goes on, then he must sit not in England, but in the Chechen republic.

I would ask Radios Freedom, if it is honest to say, so that such discussions in straight ether would be organized. Because problems in the North Caucasus will be solved only if we will begin to speak truth. But truth consists in the fact that the cruelty today goes in the North Caucasus. And the beginning of this cruelty was established by the absence of normal, good control and responsibility for this bear, first of all, local authorities.

Andrey shariy: Thanks, Mr. Beno. Radios freedom is occupied only by the fact, which attempts to organize this discussion. Still let look how Russian authorities relates to this type to discussions. Yuri Ilich from Moscow is in ether. Good evening, please.

Listener: Good evening. I have a short question to both participants in the discussion. is It’s known the well international plan of regulating similar conflicts, connected with the separation of states, is called "road map". Very simple: it is necessary that the illegal groups would lay down weapons and then to lawful government give the right of independence. Here how did relate Chechen both sides - and lawful government, so called, and shaping - to follow this plan, if Russia guarantee the independence of Chechen Republic after the disarmament of these groupings?

Andrey shariy: Thanks, Yuri Ilich. Mr. Zakaev, for you the first is in prospect to answer.

Akhmed Zakaev: You know, I think that the continuous war in the North Caucasus, now already boldly it is possible to speak, and to Chechnya - this not because of the absence of some peaceful plans or possible version of the peaceful settlement of Russian- Chechen conflict, this because of the absence of political will. As soon as in the Kremlin it was decided in 96 year to finish Chechen war, at least to the period to stop, the war was stopped. And now I am absolutely confident in the fact that in the shortest period as soon as the political wish will be appeared by those, who bear responsibility for proceeding, will be found output and the solution of this conflict will be found. And therefore I respect the opinion of our listener, who proposes the version of "road map". Absolutely he is right in the fact that until the political aspects of this conflict are not solved on the mutually acceptable conditions for Russia and Chechen Republic, this conflict will continue.

Andrey shariy: Thanks. Shamil Ben, to you word. Shamil' of Ben: Today conflict between Chechen side and Russia as such is absent. Therefore which 99% of population of the Chechen republic today thinks about how to feed family as to survive, as to handle children, how to obtain health. Otherwise on the Chechen streets they would speak about other themes, but not about those themes, which today discuss. Therefore there is no conflict of this plan. In the future it can be renewed - this is unambiguously my opinion. But today to speak, that there is some Chechen side, which with the Russian side must conduct the negotiations about the political settlement - this is nonsense. First, because the majority of the Chechen population will not entrust to those, which name itself Ichkerians so that they from their name would conduct dialogue with someone that would not be.

Andrey shariy: I want to resemble the opinion of the respected expert of Emil pain, who spoke, that, strictly, everything were poor - and the supporters of separatism, there are no worthy figures, and those prokremlin authorities, which now govern Chechen Republic.

Victor Nikolaevich from Moscow, good evening.

Listener: I want to ask Akhmed Zakaev, why it is not possible to conduct power contest by political means, participating in the selections?

Akhmed Zakaev: In this question the position of Chechen management was declared. Repeatedly they declared about the readiness to forego the methods of armed struggle and to conduct all debatable questions by political methods. The fact is that today active part of the Chechen society is practically pressed from the political processes and in connection with this, I am confident that the escalation of military actions in the North Caucasus will be strengthened. Now this is extended not only in Chechen Republic, but with the cancellation of regional selections this applies to the adjacent North-Caucasian republics. And this already began with that largest military campaign in the Caucasus.

Radio Freedom, 21.10.05
http://chechenpress.co.uk/english/news/2005/10/21/05.shtml