RT: Your meeting with President Medvedev resulted in the signing of
several treaties. What help is Abkhazia expecting to receive from
Russia?
SB: We signed ten documents, most of them of an economic nature.
I think the most important ones were the documents concerning the
development of transport infrastructure: construction of our airport
and its operation, maritime traffic, roads, railways… These are the
directions in which any economy should move, and Abkhazia is not an
exception here. We signed an agreement on the Emergencies Ministry
activities – rescue work on land and sea. There were also a number of
military treaties. So, all these agreements will help our development.
Russia also helps us financially, and this aid is substantial.
But as I told Mr. Medvedev, the macroeconomic project that we
have today – in the area of transport, including air, maritime traffic,
railways – is mutually beneficial, it is good for both Abkhazia and
Russia. For example, re-exporting goods through our territories to
Russia's South. Good question. It involves a number of issues – border
customs clearance, for example. When we figure out and solve these
problems, it will significantly help the economy. The finances that
have been allocated already are used for social needs – developing
infrastructure, dealing with environmental issues, because Abkhazia is
a place for tourists. The sea and its condition are the most important
things for us, so people will come here. And we will continue our
co-operation in the military sphere, based on the treaties we signed –
the military base, co-operation in the area of technology.
RT: You and President Medvedev agreed on the creation of a Russian
military base in Abkhazia. Some Western countries and Georgia say
that's illegal. Authorities in Tbilisi also claim that after the 2008
war, both South Ossetia and Abkhazia have become one large Russian
military base in the Caucasus. What's your response?
SB: It is hard to respond to things and claims that cannot be
considered serious. But I have to. The Abkhazian army has 24,000 people
today, and that includes the reserve. The Russian military base staff
is only 1,500 people today. 1,400 soldiers are in the border patrol
troops. If you can call that a military base, then I can ask both
Georgia and the Western countries the same question. There are about
7,000 people in the NATO troops in Kosovo. Now, that is a military
base. So let's look at what happens in the center of Europe first, and
then move on to our region.
RT: What is the situation in the region now?
SB: Of course, the situation has changed drastically. It is more
stable now. The joint border patrol is bringing results. We are only
beginning to equip the borders with surveillance, fence them, so that
there are no provocations at the borders, no smuggling of things. It is
very important. So I think the situation there is stable now.
RT: What is the current stage of talks in Geneva on the Caucasus? Is there a chance of reaching some kind of an agreement?
SB: The talks in Geneva are being held, and so far we support
the process, even though Georgia has said no to all our proposals.
Abkhazia and South Ossetia have the right to insist on Georgia signing
a non-aggression pact. After what happened in 2008, Georgia should
gladly do it, if it doesn't plan any aggression in the future. But the
issue has not been resolved yet.
Of course, this process could be halted, but it should be
continued. It is better to continue the talks. The talks in Gali, where
five countries are involved, are happening at the same time, where
current issues are being discussed – the stationing of Russian border
patrol troops in the region, our own border patrol, EU military
observers on the other side of the border. I think these processes
should be continued, and at this point we plan to participate in them.
RT: So far besides Russia only three other states have recognized
the independence of Abkhazia. What other chances are there that other
countries may follow?
SB: I think this year several more countries will recognize
Abkhazia. It does not matter that much which countries in particular.
When I spoke at the Moscow Institute of International Relations, I said
we are already recognized by the biggest country in the world – Russia,
and by the smallest one – Nauru. I think other countries will join.
It’s a joke of course, but every joke has some truth in it. I think
some former Soviet Union republics will follow suit, along with other
countries. But it’s not that important how soon we’ll be recognized.
What is more important is that we establish ourselves as a state as
quickly as possible – our statehood, democratic principles, the rule of
law – and make the Abkhazian economy attractive to investors. This is
our priority. It’s obvious that we pay a lot of attention to our
foreign policy. We are in touch with international organizations in
different countries on different continents. However, what’s essential
is to develop our economy and our political system.
RT: Is it possible that some day Abkhazia will become part of the Russian Federation?
SB: No, no. We have no fears of this kind. The world is built so
that minor countries and peoples are susceptible to assimilation,
whether we want it or not. There are processes of globalization,
economic development and so forth. Nobody hampers our development,
though. Nobody hampers our addressing demographic issues, our dealing
with families with many children. And Russia helps us in that. Russia
has absolutely no need to annex more lands – it has enough of its own.
When this issue is raised, the reason is clear – Georgia and the West
claim that Russia is going to absorb Abkhazia. But [Lavrenty] Beriya
and [Joseph] Stalin failed to do so in their time, so it’s highly
unlikely that Russia will succeed now.
Recently, I went to Russia on an official visit, and I had a
meeting with the president of the Russian Federation, and he
re-affirmed that Russia has only the best of intentions towards
Abkhazia.
Of course, the relations are friendly. What is crucial for
Russia is that there should be peace and stability in the South
Caucasus, and consequently in the North Caucasus and all over the
Caucasus – there must be peace there. If our people are smart and wise
enough to comprehend all this, they will do the utmost – through
economy, through development and through culture, along with Russia –
to build a normal peaceful state where economy, culture and our
national identity can be developed. Russia is there to help us in this
cause.
RT: There have been reports recently that Georgia is rearming with
help from abroad, including Israel. Do you feel this is a threat to
Abkhazia?
SB: Of course, it can pose a threat both to Abkhazia and South
Ossetia, and not only to us, but to the Caucasus as a whole, and the
south of Russia. The 2008 events have demonstrated that Georgia is an
unpredictable country. Its leadership lives and works based on
emotions, outbursts of emotions. It is not the way a nation should
determine its policy.
Therefore we take measures for our security. When I am asked why
there are Russian troops, why there is a military base, I reply it’s
for one simple reason, why all of you are members of NATO.
RT: Do you think the 2008 South Ossetian scenario will repeat itself in Abkhazia?
SB: I think it is impossible now. If someone has such thoughts and ambitions, it means the end of the Georgian state.
RT: What will happen if Georgia takes some active steps to challenge Abkhazia’s independence?
SB: We’ll take appropriate measures, along with our allies. We
will likewise do all we can to prevent this in the first place. And,
should it happen, our reaction will be the same as in 2008.
RT: So far Georgia says it aims for peaceful reconciliation with Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Do you think it is possible?
SB: I saw the plan that Georgia developed and submitted to the
European Parliament. They think this plan is one of the most
significant steps of Georgia’s foreign policy. We don’t think so. To
us, violent or peaceful integration with Georgia is impossible.
It is high time for everyone to realize one thing. No one can
ignore the real situation in the world, be it a major power or a small
country. The people of Abkhazia have made their choice – a choice for
independence and free development.
We are ready for dialogue with any country that’s open. We are
ready to talk to the Georgian side whenever it is ready, except we will
have no contacts with the current Georgian authorities who have done
much evil in the Caucasus and whose hands are covered with blood. We
will only talk to those who realize there is no other way. We are
neighbors and must build our good, neighborly relations for the future.
This is a realistic approach.
RT: Sergey Bagapsh, thank you for your time with us today.
http://rt.com/Politics/2010-02-23/abkhazia-bagapsh-georgia-conflict.html